[bwilson4web]

I'd noticed my mileage was headed the wrong way even as the weather became warmer ... ethanol!

Bob Wilson

[Smiling Jack]

bwilson4web said:

I'd noticed my mileage was headed the wrong way even as the weather became warmer ... ethanol!

Bob Wilson

I sympathize !

I'd be interested to know your estimate of the % change in your fuel consumption - either neglecting or allowing for the simultaneous warm temperature impact.

[FastMover]

IMHO - Pretty straight forward and sad.

Doesn’t ethanol help the air and save resources? Well, not really. More than 80% of the present automotive fleet adjusts combustion to maintain air-to-fuel ratio. Ethanol used to work in older cars by “fooling” them into running leaner and cleaner, but modern vehicles adjust the mixture dynamically, so there’s no benefit. The car will simply use more fuel to offset the lower combustion efficiency, which will result in roughly the same carbon footprint when the production of the ethanol is considered.

Doesn’t ethanol help us reduce oil imports? Again, not really. Producing ethanol is energy intensive, and this is reflected in the price. The only reason ethanol makes its way into the mogas pool in such great volumes is that one, the feds require it to assure votes for the guy in the White House, and two, ethanol has a tax subsidy for the farm lobby. If you take away the tax subsidy, gasoline is cheaper than ethanol because more resources are required to make ethanol (like diesel for tractors and fuel for distillation and distribution) than are required to make gasoline. Where do those energy resources come from? Oil imports. A vicious circle, to be sure.

Ehanol creates other problems too. Ethanol is water friendly; water that makes its way into the fuel is absorbed by the ethanol. Your fuel gets a little wet, and the water is absorbed into ethanol in the fuel, You climb into the mountains or start out on a winter road trip and the fuel cools to ambient temperature, and as the ethanol cools, the solubility of water in it decreases. That water drops out in the fuel tank, and if the temperature is less than freezing, your fuel system becomes blocked by ice crystals. Additionally, for older vehicles there are materials incompatibilities with ethanol. Hoses, gaskets, elastomeric seals and seats can swell in a gasohol environment, adversely affecting engine component life.

The FAA wisely decided long ago that significant certification work would be required to approve ethanol-containing gasoline, even for aircraft approved for mogas.

RFB

[bwilson4web]

What bothers me is trying to get an exact ethanol ratio. There was a report, a credible report, that 30% ethanol improved the octane enough to compensate for the lower energy content. I have seen at higher power settings a slight increase in engine efficiency by letting the spark advance. This is a theory that I was planning to test this summer.

Counter to this theory is an engine running at partial power can still advance the spark to an optimum level if the gasoline has a minimum octane. What this means is the octane improvement may only be seen at high power settings and unless a lot of hill climbing or high speeds, +70 mph, are being used, it may not be enough.

The challenge is if I'm faced with E10 and E85 (there is a report of Jet station that offers both,) how do I 'mix' the grades of gas to achieve an E30 target. Oh well, another way to be weird at the gas station.

One option is to never fill up but work from a table of E10 and E85 ratios. So I simply under-fill yet record the quantities and tripmeter at each. No single fill-up will be strictly accurate but the long term, say 3 or more fillings, the average will be accurate. In the meanwhile, I have other instrumentation to measure BSFC.

Bob Wilson

[centrider]

FastMover said:

IMHO - Pretty straight forward and sad.

Doesn’t ethanol help the air and save resources? Well, not really. More than 80% of the present automotive fleet adjusts combustion to maintain air-to-fuel ratio. Ethanol used to work in older cars by “fooling” them into running leaner and cleaner, but modern vehicles adjust the mixture dynamically, so there’s no benefit. The car will simply use more fuel to offset the lower combustion efficiency, which will result in roughly the same carbon footprint when the production of the ethanol is considered.

Doesn’t ethanol help us reduce oil imports? Again, not really. Producing ethanol is energy intensive, and this is reflected in the price. The only reason ethanol makes its way into the mogas pool in such great volumes is that one, the feds require it to assure votes for the guy in the White House, and two, ethanol has a tax subsidy for the farm lobby. If you take away the tax subsidy, gasoline is cheaper than ethanol because more resources are required to make ethanol (like diesel for tractors and fuel for distillation and distribution) than are required to make gasoline. Where do those energy resources come from? Oil imports. A vicious circle, to be sure.

Ehanol creates other problems too. Ethanol is water friendly; water that makes its way into the fuel is absorbed by the ethanol. Your fuel gets a little wet, and the water is absorbed into ethanol in the fuel, You climb into the mountains or start out on a winter road trip and the fuel cools to ambient temperature, and as the ethanol cools, the solubility of water in it decreases. That water drops out in the fuel tank, and if the temperature is less than freezing, your fuel system becomes blocked by ice crystals. Additionally, for older vehicles there are materials incompatibilities with ethanol. Hoses, gaskets, elastomeric seals and seats can swell in a gasohol environment, adversely affecting engine component life.

The FAA wisely decided long ago that significant certification work would be required to approve ethanol-containing gasoline, even for aircraft approved for mogas.

RFB

I pretty much agree with your take on ethanol. However, "The only reason ethanol makes its way into the mogas pool in such great volumes is that one, the feds require it to assure votes for the guy in the White House, and two, ethanol has a tax subsidy for the farm lobby." My recollection is that the push for ethanol came during the Bush administration. Is that your recollection also?

[bwilson4web]

centrider said:

I pretty much agree with your take on ethanol. However, "The only reason ethanol makes its way into the mogas pool in such great volumes is that one, the feds require it to assure votes for the guy in the White House, and two, ethanol has a tax subsidy for the farm lobby." My recollection is that the push for ethanol came during the Bush administration. Is that your recollection also?

Actually it is both the White House and Congress and the ethanol movement that started in large part because of Brazil. During the last fossil fuel price hike, Brazil was immune from direct fuel hikes. Every day, the sun deposits on the USA landmass enough energy to more than power major segments of our economy. Today, we're using ethanol to transport part of that solar energy to power our cars but it complicates our efforts to measure vehicle efficiency.

Two years ago, I was able to measure a 5% difference in the performance of gasoline brands. But ethanol, an unknown quantity, introduces an uncontrolled variable. We don't have a good way to measure gasoline/ethanol energy content so changes to our vehicles can be quantified, easily.

It remains a technical puzzle.

Bob Wilson

[Smiling Jack]

bwilson4web said:

What bothers me is trying to get an exact ethanol ratio. There was a report, a credible report, that 30% ethanol improved the octane enough to compensate for the lower energy content. I have seen at higher power settings a slight increase in engine efficiency by letting the spark advance. This is a theory that I was planning to test this summer.

Counter to this theory is an engine running at partial power can still advance the spark to an optimum level if the gasoline has a minimum octane. What this means is the octane improvement may only be seen at high power settings and unless a lot of hill climbing or high speeds, +70 mph, are being used, it may not be enough.

The challenge is if I'm faced with E10 and E85 (there is a report of Jet station that offers both,) how do I 'mix' the grades of gas to achieve an E30 target. Oh well, another way to be weird at the gas station.

One option is to never fill up but work from a table of E10 and E85 ratios. So I simply under-fill yet record the quantities and tripmeter at each. No single fill-up will be strictly accurate but the long term, say 3 or more fillings, the average will be accurate. In the meanwhile, I have other instrumentation to measure BSFC.

Bob Wilson

Bob,

I have followed many of your posts explaining your measurements, observations and analysis of fuel consumption. Extremely instructive, thank you.

Hence, I expect that your observations on the relative fuel consumption for various ethanol-gasoline mixtures will be very useful, and I look forward to the posts.

However, I expect (and I would love to be proven wrong on this !) that you will find, particularly with this engine, that no mix will do better than 100% gasoline. I'm afraid that this engine simply does not have a high enough compression ratio to capitalize very much on the improved anti-knock qualities of the ethanol mix, no matter how the spark advance is handled.

I have enough faith in your techniques, 'though, that if you prove your thesis, I'll be right out there at the pump mixing fuels with you.

Jack

[HybridDriver]

FastMover said:

IMHO - Pretty straight forward and sad. AND INCORRECT BELOW

Doesn’t ethanol help us reduce oil imports? Again, not really. Producing ethanol is energy intensive,

NO, NOT REALLY BY YEAR 2009 STANDARDS. I WORK FOR A MAJOR FIRM THAT AUDITS ETHANOL PRODUCTION PLANTS, TELLS THEM HOW THEY ARE DOING, AND GIVES THEM SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT. THE INDUSTRY STANDARD IS, 26,000 BTU OF FOSSIL FUEL GOES INTO EACH 76,000 BTU GALLON OF ETHANOL. THE "BEST" PLANT THAT USES THE CORN STRAW FOR FUEL, USES ABOUT 6,500 BTU OF FOSSIL FUEL FOR EACH GALLON PRODUCED.

and this is reflected in the price. The only reason ethanol makes its way into the mogas pool in such great volumes is that one, the feds require it to assure votes for the guy in the White House, and two, ethanol has a tax subsidy for the farm lobby. If you take away the tax subsidy, gasoline is cheaper than ethanol because more resources are required to make ethanol

TAKE AWAY ALL SUBSIDY, AND ETHANOL COSTS ABOUT $1.90 PER GALLON TO MAKE AT JUNE, 2009 PRICES FOR COMMODITIES. THIS INCLUDES ALL INPUT COSTS FOR TRANSPORT, AND INGREDIENTS SUCH AS FERTILIZER, YEASTS, AND CLEANING SUPPLIES.

Ehanol creates other problems too. Ethanol is water friendly;

TO BE SPECIFIC, WATER AND ETHANOL ARE MISCIBLE. THEY MIX PERFECTLY WITH EACH OTHER.
water that makes its way into the fuel is absorbed by the ethanol. Your fuel gets a little wet,( NOT REALLY ) and the water is absorbed into ethanol in the fuel, You climb into the mountains or start out on a winter road trip and the fuel cools to ambient temperature, and as the ethanol cools, the solubility of water in it decreases. NOT REALLY IN THE PERCENTAGES PRESENT, ie: FAR LESS THAN 10% WATER.
That water drops out in the fuel tank, NO, IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT! 100% FALSE! and if the temperature is less than freezing, your fuel system becomes blocked by ice crystals. WRONG! Additionally, for older vehicles there are materials incompatibilities with ethanol. Hoses, gaskets, elastomeric seals and seats can swell in a gasohol environment, adversely affecting engine component life. MIS-INFORMATION HERE. ETHANOL IS HARD ON ( SLOWLY DISSOLVES ) NATURAL RUBBER, NATURAL CORK, AND FIBERGLASS. ALSO, NOT GREAT FOR LEAD. IT WON'T EAT A HOLE IN LEAD ( IN YOUR LIFETIME ) BUT WILL ADD LEAD TO EMISSIONS IF PRESENT IN THE METAL COMPONENTS OF YOUR CAR ( UNLIKELY )


RFB

Hope that helps clear up some mis-information.

[FastMover]

TAKE AWAY ALL SUBSIDY, AND ETHANOL COSTS ABOUT $1.90 PER GALLON TO MAKE AT JUNE, 2009 PRICES FOR COMMODITIES. THIS INCLUDES ALL INPUT COSTS FOR TRANSPORT, AND INGREDIENTS SUCH AS FERTILIZER, YEASTS, AND CLEANING SUPPLIES.

Great! When can we remove the subsidy crutch that amounts to some 5 BILLION dollars annually (Blender's Tax Credit), Pro-rata share of corn subsidies (about $306 million annually), Tax Exemptions for Ethanol Plant construction, Ethanol Enery Investment Tax Credit, Ethanol ACRS Accelerated Depreciation, and Federal and Local subsidies from Excise Tax Exemptions (about 900 million annually). These pieces of pork have been around for almost 30 years now in some form, and after the Bush Administrations Energy Policy Act of 2005, it has gone nowhere but UP. I an not accusing the Ethanol industry for rising food costs. There were other factors like global weather and production energy costs that entered into that.

Oh, and lets also not forget the grants and low/no interest loans:

Clinton-Southeast Joint Venture (GA) $1.85M Guarante Defaulted

Idaho Fuels (ID) $0.475M, Guarantee Defaulted

Farm Fuel Production $3.8M Guarantee Defaulted

Kentucky Agricultural Energy Co. (KY) $35.2M Guarantee, 11/84 Defaulted

American Fuel Technologies (MD) $2.5M Guarantee Loan repaid

ADC-1 (NE) $20M Guarantee, 10/82 Sold at no loss.

Boucher Rural Products (NE) $0.28M Guarantee Defaulted

Dawn Enterprises (ND) $20M Guarantee Defaulted

South Point Ethanol (OH) $32M Guarantee, 5/81 Repayments were current as of source reports.

Carolina Alcohol (SC) $0.495M Guarantee Defaulted

Sepco, Inc. (SD) $0.35M Guarantee Defaulted

Coburn Enterprises (SD) $0.75M Guarantee Defaulted

Elgin Alcohol Fuels, Inc. (IA) $2.6M Guarantee Funds never disbursed.

High Plains Corp. (KS) $20M Guarantee Funds never disbursed.

Alchem, Ltd. (ND) $8.4M Guarantee, 6/87 Repayments were current as of source reports.

Source = 2006, International Institute for Sustainable Development

Growth Energy got their wish, and we now have mandates for Ethanol in automotive fuels. The result, when combined with the subsidies means we are now paying more for less -- about 11,000 BTU's less per 20 gallon tank. Ethanol subsidies are more than twice those of the next highest subisdized energy segment-- Nuclear Power. The time has come when we should admit the true cost of Ethanol Production. If it is a buck, ninety to delivery as indicated, it can stand on its own with $3.00 gas even with a lower energy content -- and without the subsidies.

MIS-INFORMATION HERE. ETHANOL IS HARD ON ( SLOWLY DISSOLVES ) NATURAL RUBBER, NATURAL CORK, AND FIBERGLASS. ALSO, NOT GREAT FOR LEAD. IT WON'T EAT A HOLE IN LEAD ( IN YOUR LIFETIME ) BUT WILL ADD LEAD TO EMISSIONS IF PRESENT IN THE METAL COMPONENTS OF YOUR CAR ( UNLIKELY )

Both AOPA and EAA are lobbying Congress to exempt aviation gasoline from two proposed amendments to the Clean Air Act. The bills propose making it mandatory for all motor vehicle gasolines (with a few exceptions for collector cars) to contain at least 10 percent "renewable fuels" by 2010. About the only viable alternative fuel now available is ethanol fermented from corn and it gives airplanes a major hangover. Separate studies by EAA, the FAA and Cessna have conclusively determined that ethanol damages everything from engines to fuel systems in airplanes, but the bills, as they stand now, would require the 10 percent quota for avgas. The groups are also hoping to get some relief for those with mogas STCs. In addition to exempting avgas, the groups want Congress to allow premium automotive fuel to be made without ethanol. The addition of ethanol invalidates the mogas STCs. Several states have seen the wisdom of having some alcohol-free fuel available, not only for airplanes but for boats and recreational products, and have exempted premium fuel from their own 10-percent rules.

source = http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/lead..._192687-1.html

RFB

[FastMover]

Here's a little more fat for the Ethanol fire:

The water requirements associated with driving on biofuels can be significant. Assuming conservatively a volumetric water to ethanol ratio of 800 (e.g., for irrigated corn ethanol from Nebraska which excludes processing water requirements), and that a car can drive 16 mi on 1 gal of ethanol (or 2/3 of the mileage from gasoline), this represents about 50 gal of water per mile driven (gwpm) (or 0.02 mi per gal of water [mpgw]).

Journal of Environmental Science and Technology, 1 May, 2009
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es802162x

RFB