[FastMover]

Here in Washinton State, ethanol is a fact of life with the passage of Senate Bill 6508. The entire legislative body and the governor are shouting about how "responsible" we are about cleaner air and oil independence. Based on my own experience to date, and on availble research I have questions about ethanol in vehicle fuels:

• Ethanol has a lower calorie content, so more is needed. What is the corrected carbon footprint and polution model after the increased quantity to do the same job is considered?
• Ethonal is harder on hoses, seals and other non-metallic components. What is the real cost when the overhead of the increased maintenance requirement is considered?
• Nothwithstanding the arguments for more and improved public transit, why is ethanol, with its very limited applicability and lower energy content trumpeted as the path to enegy efficiency over and above more effective energy reduction models like incentives for smaller displacement, higher efficiency vehicles, tires with lower rolling resistance, improvements in traffic flow models, etc?
• What techniques or alternatives are avialble to offset the energy diluting effect of ethanol spiked motor fuels. Can additives be developed, (or do they exist now) to offset the loss of calories or the detremental chemical effects on non-metalic engine parts?
• Are there other biofuel alternatives to alcohol based fuels? Alcohol is, at its core, a solvent. That can't be good for any engine in the long term.

I want to hear what others think about ethonal. For me, I think it is largely a political response to the energy problem that is designed to show that our collective government bodies are doing something. The effectiveness or determental effect on your own, personal, hard earned asset is inconsequential to those august bodies.

[mikieboyblue]

Ethanol = EVIL

FastMover said:

• Are there other biofuel alternatives to alcohol based fuels? Alcohol is, at its core, a solvent. That can't be good for any engine in the long term.

Bio-diesel (we can make from almost anothing and it has more energy than gas -- right?).

[centrider]

mikieboyblue said:

Ethanol = EVIL

[/LIST]Bio-diesel (we can make from almost anothing and it has more energy than gas -- right?).

That may well be. However, most cars in the US run on gasoline. If a replacement is found, it must be for gas.

[Red]

I am only interested in the most miles per dollar spent. If 10% ethanol permits a lower cost and it is not offset with fewer miles per gallon - I'll use it. However, I may never know the real truth of the matter since I can't control all the other variables to test it.

[centrider]

Red said:

However, I may never know the real truth of the matter since I can't control all the other variables to test it.

And my guess is, you never will have enough facts to make an informed decision.

[HybridDriver]

FastMover said:

I have questions about ethanol in vehicle fuels:

• Ethanol has a lower calorie content, so more is needed. What is the corrected carbon footprint and polution model after the increased quantity to do the same job is considered?
• Ethonal is harder on hoses, seals and other non-metallic components. What is the real cost when the overhead of the increased maintenance requirement is considered?
• Nothwithstanding the arguments for more and improved public transit, why is ethanol, with its very limited applicability and lower energy content trumpeted as the path to enegy efficiency over and above more effective energy reduction models like incentives for smaller displacement, higher efficiency vehicles, tires with lower rolling resistance, improvements in traffic flow models, etc?
• What techniques or alternatives are avialble to offset the energy diluting effect of ethanol spiked motor fuels. Can additives be developed, (or do they exist now) to offset the loss of calories or the detremental chemical effects on non-metalic engine parts?
• Are there other biofuel alternatives to alcohol based fuels? Alcohol is, at its core, a solvent. That can't be good for any engine in the long term.

Ethanol Production is in effect, a carbon negative, carbon sink, endeavor. Think about 1 million acres of green leafy corn crop and the associated biomass. Only a small fraction ( somewhere less than 10% of the bio MASS ) of the total corn crop is converted into ethanol, and then burned as an automobile fuel. Only a very small fraction of the CO2 absorbed by the crop during the growing season is returned to the atmosphere via tailpipe emissions. Considering the CO2 emitted during planting, harvesting, and producing the ethanol, still, far less is returned to the atmosphere, than was removed during the growing season on a pound per pound basis.

E10 lowers harmful tailpipe emissions by 30%. This is perhaps a larger benefit than the fossil fuel offset.

The fossil fuel offest is: 100btu of fossil fuel ( or 100 calories if you wish ) is used to produce 134 btu ( or calories ) of ethanol. This takes into account everything from planting to retail pump. The ethanol refinery uses about 20 btu of fossil fuel per 100 btu of ethanol produced. In contrast, it takes 124 btu of fossil fuel to find, transport, refine, and deliver 100 btu of gasoline to the retail pump.

Ethanol contains 76,000 btu of energy.
Gasoline varries, but on average, gasoline at the pump with additives & detergents contains 114,000 btu of energy.
You can't buy the additive free 120,000 btu gasoline that some people will compare ethanol to.
On average, a gasoline internal combustion engine converts 20% of the gasoline's btu into motion, and 80% goes into waste heat. On average, an ethanol internal combustion engine converts 30% of the ethanol's btu into motion, and 70% goes into waste heat. ( ICE's are not very efficient no matter how you look at them. )
Adding the electric motors to hybrid cars gets them to about the 30% efficency range in some cases.

Ethanol is only "hard on" a few things, and those things are rarely used in automobiles.
Ethanol is "hard on" Fiberglass, natural rubber, natural cork, and lead.
It is not hard on most metals, plastics, and synthetic materials.
Ethanol has a pH very close to 7.0, the same as water.
By law, ethanol cannot contain any more water than regular gas.
Ethanol actually removes exsisting water from tanks and lines.
Ethanol is a natural anti-freeze, and when added to diesel ( and you can add 10-20% to diesel ) will prevent gelling in winter.
( Some city busses in Nebraska use ethanol in the diesel, cleaning emissions, and eleminating gelling. I don't have data on the MPG effects. )

Ethanol is MADE IN THE USA by U.S. labor and cannot be "outsourced".
Ethanol has directly and indirectly created an estimated 250,000 jobs nation-wide.
We had 15% fewer aceres of corn planted in 2008 compared to 1931.
1931 we got 60 bushels from an acre. Now we get 160 bushels per acre.
Fertilizer use per acre was 25% less in 2008 compared to 1980.

What can be done? And done now?

E10 is perhaps the worst blend, and was some-what an arbitrary amount with little sciece behind it.
Ethanol has 30% less energy, so E10 should produce only 3% lower MPG.
Some people find E10 lowers MPG by as much as 10%.
This is not the fault of the fuel. This is the fault of the vehicle it is used in.
E10 will "fool" the sensors in the car, and this lowers MPG more than it should.
New studies show that E30, or 30% ethanol with 70% gas gets very nearly the same, or 1-2% less MPG than pure gas.
With very many more benefits.

Ethanol is a solvent? Of course! So is WATER. So is GASOLINE!
Ethanol is non-toxic. It is the same alcohol in wine and beer.
Ethanol is not considered Haz-mat in some states. In some states it is perfectly legal to flush down the drain, rivers, and streams with copius amounts of water to dilute it. Under 40 proof and it's generally considered safe. You can't flush gaoline into a river with ANY amount of water.

[bwilson4web]

HybridDriver said:

. . .
New studies show that E30, or 30% ethanol with 70% gas gets very nearly the same, or 1-2% less MPG than pure gas.
. . .

As soon as I get my next generation instrumentation working, I'm looking forward to testing this with my 1.5L Prius. I did see some evidence of higher octane helping in my hill-climb test. If E30 proves out, I'm going to be thrilled.

Bob Wilson

[centrider]

Well, HD, thanks for the comprehensive review of ethanol. Can't say what it is we're using in Calif now.

[CoalMiner]

bwilson4web said:

As soon as I get my next generation instrumentation working, I'm looking forward to testing this with my 1.5L Prius. I did see some evidence of higher octane helping in my hill-climb test. If E30 proves out, I'm going to be thrilled.

Bob Wilson

How would you get E30 at the retail level? I'm just curious.

Mixing it yourself is sort asking for trouble over more than a few tankfuls. You would get the the other ingredients out of proportion, the stuff that lowers the flash point, makes the detergent/cleaning effect, causes water to disperse, etc., etc., etc?

[HybridDriver]

If gasoline is perfectly safe for all cars...
If E85 is perfectly safe for all flex fuel cars...
If any percentage of ethanol / gas mix is perfectly safe for all flex fuel cars....

If all MODERN cars contain the same parts of flex fuel cars ( flex fuel cars mostly have different electronics )...

It stands to reason, and reserch & testing shows, E30 or 30% ethanol is safe for all modern cars.

There is no \"water dispersion ingredients\". Ethanol and water are misible in each other.
Ethanol is perfectly dissolved in water. Water is perfectly dissolved in ethanol.