[Jason]

In the media I'm constantly seeing stories about electric and/or plug-in cars. There seems to be some underlying assumption that less gas automatically means better efficiency and cheaper net cost. Is this actually the case? How does the cost of electricity weigh against the cost of gasoline? Is electricity generated at a powerplant more or less harmful to the environment than the production of gasoline?

[jdenenberg]

Jason,

My recent post in the "Hybrid Cars General Forum" references studies by EPRI.

JeffD

[BlackLight]

A single powerplant will be easier to control and inspect for pollution controls.
Electrical transportation efficiency will decrease the power generated and an electrical vehicles' comparative efficiency.
Evaporative and spillage losses will do the same to liquid chemical power sources.
Service cost of the electrical vehicle will be way lower.

[geodosch]

A car powered by a fuel must be designed to process that fuel. An electric car doesn't care where its power originated from: coal, natural gas, methane, hydrogen, nuclear fission, solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, etc. If new sources are created, such as nuclear fusion, that will work too. People are beginning to realize that the alternative to fossil fuels will not be any one 'magic bullet' cure, but a combination of all of the above.

Another big advantage with electric is that we have a distribution system in place. Most cars would be recharging at night, when the power grid has excess capacity. In fact, not only is that capacity available, it's currently a problem for them, because when power demand drops drastically at night, they can't simply switch-off a bunch of generating stations. So having the load on the system actually helps balance-out the power grid.

Many are touting hydrogen power as the future. I think hydrogen cars are the way forward for the oil conglomerates. If we all transitioned to electric vehicles, they would be out of business. With hydrogen, we would need a distribution network just like we have with gasoline. So I have no doubt the ExxonsMobil and ConocoPhillips of the world are looking forward to providing that service, so they can continue to price gouge us. (The electric utilities are heavily regulated, so they can't just bump their prices by 50% because a bomb went off half-way around the world.) If you look at hydrogen technology, it has a long way to go before it's practical. Maybe 5-10 years away. The fact is, they've been telling us it's 5-10 years away for the past 20 years. I think it is: a) a way for the oil industry to keep its monoply, as described above, and b) a red herring to get us to stop looking at other alternatives to gasoline in the meantime. I would bet that, even if there was a viable hydrogen solution, it would be kept hush-hush until there really was no more oil to pump out of the ground, and then miraculously it would be available, just in time for us to switch over to.

For the cost of electric vs. gasoline (or diesel), it shouldn't come down to that argument. I didn't buy my Prius because I thought my fuel savings would offset the price of a new car I didn't need at the time (though with $4 gas, it might be reality). I did so to conserve a dwindling, finite resource, and to cut back on carbon and other emissions. Obviously, a solution that costs tens or hundreds of time what we pay now (such as the current case with hydrogen) is not viable, but even if it costs slightly more in pure $$, we can't use that as an excuse to resist moving away from fossil fuels.

[FastMover]

If an all-electric drive system (as opposed to high efficiency hybrids like the Volt really is) is to ever reach the practical, production stage with full consummer acceptance, a few things are still needed:

1> the first requirement is a way to make fast, high current conversions from stored energy to drive system for acceleration, hills and starts - and drive system to stored energy during deceleration, downgrades and braking. The limiting factor for these large energy transfers today are the battery technology, both in current limitations and thermal limits. The most promising way to achive the required enegy transfers is the use of Supercapacitors/Ultracapacitors to handle high current demands and surpluses in conjuction with battery technology for long term energy storage. In this next generation vehicle, the capacitor system would operate as a buffer system for the battery system, and provide a means for current limiting and smoothing long term demand and charge;

2> I beleive that the most promising possibility for the replacement of the ICE in the hybrid is the on-board generation of energy using Hydrogen fuel cell technology. This may seem a little far fetched at first glance, but a catalyst-based technology offers the possibility of the lightest weight fuel loads available for the purpose of electrical generation. The challenges of operating temperature and efficiency are quickly being overcome in current research. Alkaline and Reformed Methanol fuel cells are now reaching operating temperatures that are usable in vehicles with efficiencies that are comparible to internal combustion engines (60% or better), which should yield a tank to wheel efficienby of around 45% (twice that of a conventional diesel passenger car). The second challenge with this technology is a practical method for refulling that is efficient from an energy production point of view. Production of hydrogen is less than 50% efficient in its own right and this low efficiency results in a higher hydrocarbon footprint unless the production facilitites are based on discontinuous sources like solar or wind based power production facilities that are combined with electrolyzers and other advanced storeage systems.

The absolute best result would be systems based on solid-oxide fuel cells. But the high temperatures for recombination and weight and bulk of systems to convert the heat to electical energy, not to mention the saftey aspects of the hot ceramics, make this impractical in the near term.

RFB